Question-Comment: ever done a study on=universal--salvation???

-in adam =all died-----in Christ [all] shall be made alive!!!

is the lake of fire[without end]?? or is it a refining??

what of the millions who never heard the Gospel???

what does->[behold the lamb of GOD that taketh away the sin of the [WORLD] mean too you??

thank you for an answer--sincerely-->albert

You ask: ever done a study on=universal--salvation???

Yes, I have. I did my seminary work at Emory where I came across such ideas as the social Gospel, the historical Jesus, and the universal salvation. Now, as then, I am bewildered at the concepts. The only way I can figure someone came up with such ideas was to take a half dozen scriptures (if they could find that many) and pull them totally out of their context to support their thesis.

An example of this would be Acts 17:28.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Those who want there to be a universal salvation wherein everyone is saved, no matter what, use this verse to contend that God is the father of us all. But let's look at this verse in its context.

Acts 17:22-34
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Those who use Acts 17:28 to support a "universal salvation" ignore verses 25-27 which tells us that "he [God] giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord. If all that we had of the Bible was this passage, those who support a universal salvation would still have no leg to stand on; for if all were already saved, then why should they seek the Lord? Also, if all are sons and daughters of God, then who are these who are going to be judged by him? And why would those who believed Paul be singled out from those who mocked him if God makes no difference between those who receive Christ and those who don't? There is a sense wherein God is the Father of us all if you look only at the fact that He created us all. But the very passage in Genesis that tells us that God is our Creator also tells us that the first man and woman that He created brought death, and separation from God to the human race.

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You state: in adam =all died-----in Christ [all] shall be made alive!!! Those who use the verse from which this partial quote came to support universal salvation not only take the Scripture out of context, but they misread it as well. As anyone who works with words can tell you that how you read something (i.e., your intonation) is important. (Check out the news media if you doubt me.) For example, take the sentence: I think he should. If we read this emphasizing I, we have "I think he should."—suggesting that you may not think so, but I do. If we emphasize think, we have "I think he should."—implying that I'm really not quite sure. If we accent he, we have "I think he should."—meaning though others may or may not, he should. Or if accent should, we have "I think he should."—indicating that there is no question but that he should. The way those who want God's salvation to be universal would read your statement is, in adam =all died-----in Christ [all] shall be made alive—however, when read in the light of the whole of the Scriptures, it should be read, in adam =all died-----in Christ [all] shall be made alive. To read it any other way one must ignore our Lord's conversation with Nicodemus in John Chapter three and an important part of Paul's teaching in Galatians.

John 3:5-7
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Gal. 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

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You also ask: is the lake of fire[without end]?? or is it a refining?? Let me answer this question with Scripture.

Mat. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Th. 1:3-9
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Granted, to you and I an eternity of torment for some "good ol' boy" that always paid his bills and tried to take care of his family's physical needs might seem a little severe. But we must remember that no one goes to hell for his works, no matter how bad (or good) they may be. People who have heard the Gospel choose hell for themselves by rejecting God's gift of eternal life which was purchased for "whosoever will" by the shed blood of Christ. For you see, when people reject Jesus, they not only reject God's love but they treat with contempt what Christ did for them on the cross. Apparently, God thinks it no light thing that Jesus became sin for us (i.e., that He took upon Himself every sin of everyone that ever has lived or ever will) so that He could pay in full the price for those transgressions.

Just what all was involved in paying the price , we can't really fathom; but God knows. And He gives us a little insight in the Messianic Psalms (those Psalms that prophecy of Christ) and Proverbs.

Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Pro 15:11
Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

As I read the Bible, just as God will never remember the sins of those in Christ Jesus, contrariwise, He will never forget the price that Jesus paid so that we might have our sins forgiven. Some things in the spiritual realm are hard, if not impossible, to understand and describe in the natural. God's love, as it is wound up in eternal life and death, is one of those things. As to hell being eternal, perhaps it can be thought of as heaven's "capital punishment." Down here, the worst that we can do to some one who has done something very horrible and heinous is to execute them (end their life). As far as God is concerned, it looks like He considers walking over the blood of His Son Jesus, and counting it an unworthy thing, to be a capital offence. Consequently, all who persist in this offense will receive heavens "capital punishment" which the Bible presents as eternal separation from God (the Giver of life and all of its joys) and everlasting confinement to the flames of torment.

The Bible also says that God's thoughts are as far above ours as the heavens are above the earth. In fact, every analogy of the earth to the heavenly breaks down somewhere for this very reason. When we think on hell, we can appreciate this fact. I once tried to explain to a musician friend of mind the reason for an eternal hell. Being a lover of fine musical instruments, he could differentiate between a good violin and a bad one. So, I used this analogy.

What if you built yourself a fiddle. It looked good, it had good wood in it, but it just wouldn't make a good sound when you tried to play it? Knowing you, I said, you would probably take it apart and rebuild it. If it still wouldn't make good music, you would probably try again—and repeat the process even once more. But if after you had done all that you knew to do, it still wouldn't make good music, in disgust you would probably throw it in the trash, right?

He agreed with me. Then I added:

But you didn't give your son's life in your efforts to get the instrument that you had made to play and sound correctly in your hands. Granted, no one would do such a thing; for your son's life or death could have nothing to do with a violin. (I told you that all analogies break down somewhere.) But if you were God and you had made a being that stubbornly refused to do what you created it to do, in spite of the fact that you sent your obedient Son who willingly died a awful death in place of this created being to redeem his soul and salvage his life. And if you tried over and over to get this being to receive this great, costly gift, yet he stubbornly refused, wouldn't you feel some frustration and anger?!?

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And then you ask: what of the millions who never heard the Gospel???

Remember, the word Gospel means "good news." In our age, this good news has to do with Christ Jesus Who is the Door through which God's grace comes to the world. But in addition to the Gospel, the Word of God is also written in the hearts of man. It is to this law in the heart that Paul is referring in the following passage.

Rom 2:12-16
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Granted, this wording is hard to understand. Some suggest that Paul is saying that those who live and die having never heard the Gospel will be judged by how they respond to the law written in their hearts. If they love its precepts and want to do what it tells them is good, then because of the cross, God can receive them and count them to be righteous. But we should note that even if this is the correct interpretation of this passage, this does not excuse the church from its responsibility to the Great Commission; for the Word of God's grace that has been given to the church is just that—a revelation of God's grace. For myself personally, I thank God for His Word of Grace. Without it, there would have been no hope for me; for I am like a brand pulled out of the fire. I know that the Bible says of a man named Cornelius: "Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God" (Act 10:4). But for every one person like Cornelius, there must be a multitude like me who would perish but for the Gospel of God's love which was demonstrated on the cross of Calvary. So if this interpretation of Paul's words is right, should not this serve to promote the Church to greater efforts to evangelize the World? and would not the grace of God then become the grace of the Church—for if we do not go into all of the world with the good news of what Jesus has done for us, then by our indifference, are we not condemning souls to hell that could be converted by the Gospel? Could this be what the Bible was referring to when it said we could have blood on our hands? Here again we see why we named our web site DOWEKNOW, for we must admit that we really don't know how God deals with those who've never heard the Gospel. But we do know that God is Perfect and that whatever He does will be full of grace and mercy.

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And finally you ask: what does->[behold the lamb of GOD that taketh away the sin of the [WORLD] mean too you??

The passage from which you quote is found in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. You are referring to the words of John the Baptist.

John 1:29-34
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

To me, these words mean what they say; i.e., Jesus came to the earth to take away the sin of the world. But, again, these words need to be taken in their context to be understood. As you read the rest of John's Gospel, you well see how God sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross to accomplish this awesome feat and you will also read about man's responsibility in what Jesus has done. For example, in the third chapter of John we read:

John 3:16-20
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Without a doubt, the Bible presents Jesus as the Lamb of God Who took away the sin of the Word. But each of us must choose for ourselves if we want that gift to apply to our lives or if we want to stay in the state of condemnation that Adam brought upon his offspring. This brings to mind the words of our Lord Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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So, yes, I have heard of universal salvation, but I have read in the Bible of a universal condemnation—and of God's remedy for that condemnation—and of the part that man must play if he is to escape this condemnation. Although the majority of mankind will stay in this condemnation, it need not be this way—the choice is ours!

I thought I would share this. I wrote it to a well-known evangelist some time ago. When I noticed the commentary about money on your Website I thought it might be of interest to others. God bless & keep:

MVR

Dear *****:

my late Mother, God rest her soul, once said: "The church has priced itself out of my market." I hope God won't hold that against her, but I find myself agreeing with that statement.

Problem: how to tithe, let alone give sacrificially when you ain't got it to give. "Sorry, *** Gas & Electric, can't pay the bill this month--had to send a tithe to my church so they could help save the heathen all over the world." "Too bad--we're shutting off your gas and power tomorrow, then."

See what I mean?

Now, here's my question? God owns it all anyway. Why should we, who aren't just out of money, but totally BROKE before the end of the month, get hung up on the rack of guilt because we JUST DON'T HAVE IT!?

God can run off a few more tons of gold, or whatever. Just like the Bureau of Engraving does when the Fed needs more greenbacks to flood the economy with to keep a Depression at bay or something. "The cattle of a thousand hills." and all that, right?

Now, here's another bone of mine to pick: the individual churches are often big on missions, right? As it should be. But why can't they outreach directly to us poor schmucks who are hard up and having to work far away from home? My own example: I live in **** ***, where, thank God, I own outright my own home (I blew almost all the wad my folks left me on my house, almost all of what was left on my car, so they're paid for. A Ford Escort and a single-wide mobile/.modular home aren't a mansion and Rolls Royce by any means of the imagination, nor am I fabulously wealthy). I had to return to *** to work and earn money. Seven bucks an hour don't go far at all these days. In fact it don't go hardly at all. So, I am sleeping in my car and sneaking into gas station bathrooms to shave and change clothes when one of the people I work with can't let me use their bathroom to do so. The missions I keep getting referred to? Well, ******* Street isn't a place you'd care to go unless you didn't mind running a high risk of getting your throat cut or your car vanishing mysteriously, never to be seen again except for the inside of a chop-shop.

It would be nice if the individual churches could establish a means of assisting poor dumb schmucks like me directly. I ain't asking for money; just for a place to shower, shave, and hey, even be able to stretch out and sleep without being referred to one of the missions that are in the war zones where you don't go unless you're properly tooled up.

Get a job in **** ***? Hey, let me cue you in on how things go here: when it's the Mormon bishop giving the invocation prayer at the opening of each city council meeting, you kinda get an idea of the power behind the secular throne in other words, if you ain't got a skill that's in such great demand they overlook your religious beliefs, and if you ain't a Mormon, then the odds of finding work just aren't all that good.

Now, I got some other problems: my ******* state private rentacop card and gun permit are up for renewal soon. The former costs me $45 to renew for four years, the latter $50 for the ticket, and another $95 for the refresher course. Gotta come up with those so I can keep on working. I'm trying to also come up with the CompTia testing fee for my A+ computer-tech exam. Once I get that, I can maybe get a better-paying job. Oh yeah, and then there's my monthlies for up here in **** ***. I HAVE to keep those paid or the juice and gas get shut off and my water pipes freeze and bust (until that gets shut off too) and my VISA card payments (I lived on that until I found a job; getting that paid down is Priority #1 after the monthlies). So quite frankly, *****, I ain't got enough to tithe with, let alone give sacrificially. If that means God's gonna hold that against me come the Judgment, so be it. If that means I won't get any crowns or rewards, or whatever, so be it. If I end up scrubbing toilets and sweeping and mopping floors in Heaven for Eternity doing all of the scut work, living with the rest of the grunts, ect, so be it. At least I'll be in Heaven. Hell's a place I wouldn't care to visit, let alone live there. Besides, brass and big shots and I never did get along down here anyway, so up there will probably be likewise.

sincerely,

Marc

Your comments brings to mind a young man who went through something similar years ago. I don't think that he will mind my using his example, for his approach to giving to the church profited him—and he'd like it to be a blessing to someone else. Besides, I won't use his name.

Living for himself, this young fellow had turned his life into a "mell of a hess" (sound familiar?). Things got so bad that He turned to Christ Jesus in desperation. His approach to the Lord was something like this.

Lord Jesus, I'm hurting, and I've caused others to hurt. The way I'm feeling now, hell's too good for me. I've got nothing to bring you but the mess that I've made of my life and a heart full of regret. But if you'll forgive me my sin and save me like the Bible says you will, then I'll give the rest of my messed up life to you.

As a multitude can attest, God does hear such a prayer. At any rate, He heard this sinner's prayer and according to his testimony, gloriously saved him--and not only saved him, but called him to preach.

So, wanting to please, he began going faithfully to church. Of course, the church taught that to please God, he had to give his tithe first, then God would bless what was left so that he would have an abundance. However, included in this guy's mess was divorce and child support. After missing a couple of child support payments, he had to deal with which would please God the most: paying his tithes and making the preacher happy—who was insistent that he couldn't be called to preach because he had been divorced—or paying his child support and staying out of jail.

According to his testimony, this was the way he handled his dilemma.

Lord, you know I brought you a mess, and you accepted me as I was. And you know that the church is insisting that I must pay my tithes, which I've tried to do, but things aren't working out. So let me make this deal with you. Rather than giving you ten percent, let me, with your help, give you 100% of what I am and of whatever you make me to be. If you will guide me daily by your Holy Spirit as Paul wrote to the Romans (Rom. 8:1-4 cf. Gal.5:25), then I will serve you and share my substance with others as you lead.

Long story short—this must have been acceptable to God, for He has given the fellow a viable, soul-saving ministry and has blessed his life abundantly. (By the way, I understand that the preacher who insisted that he could not be called to preach lost his church and is no longer preaching.)

We were traveling years back and we pulled into a very large state-operated rest stop. It was brand new with places marked off for parking cars. We were pulling a camper, and since it had an automatic oven in it, we could put on a roast, chicken, etc. and bake it while traveling. We parked near a picnic table and there was a caretaker/tool type building close to this area. There was a "no parking" sign in front of the building. Keep in mind that the park was so large that we could not see over the hill into the other area. There were no cars in our area except one. It was parked in front of the "no parking" sign with the hood up.

We proceeded to put our food on the picnic table, along with a watermelon, when this man appeared from the direction of the parked car. He immediately started "poor-mouthing." It seems that he had supposedly parked in the Catholic Church's parking lot in the local town, and, consequently, had been put in jail for the weekend. He said he had parked there because he was a Christian and figured that would be a safe place to stop and rest. He said he had no food, no money, no job… and I asked him, "While you were in jail, did you have food and warmth?" His answer was yes because it was Easter weekend. I asked him if he shared Christ with the people while he was in jail. He said no because he was being wrongfully jailed and mistreated. I said, "What if God placed you there, like he did Peter and the Apostle Paul, to witness to someone? What if that was your pulpit for the day?" I then reminded him of some Scripture relating to the first disciples.

2Ti 1:8
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Act 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Eph 6:20
For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

1Pe 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

1Pe 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

1Pe 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Act 28:31
Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Eph 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Phl 1:12
But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things [which happened] unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;

2Th 3:1
Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have [free] course, and be glorified, even as [it is] with you:

Eph 3:1
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Phl 1:7
Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

Col 4:3
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

The man stopped his "whining" and began to think. I told him I would share my food with him, not because I agreed with him, but because he needed to hear what I had to say. I explained that his parking by the "no parking" sign when there was space after space for parking was evidence that he was deliberately provoking the officials. I said, "Life is very simple. If you park by a ‘no parking' sign, you will be asked to move." I asked if he thought himself better than Apostle Paul. Paul's Christian walk took him to the jail. He could not avoid it because it was part of his path.

If you find that you are constantly maneuvered by "life situations" to go to a homeless type shelter, then look around for the one you are supposed to witness to so you can get on with life. If you will witness, willingly, in very adverse situations, then you will find your situation will gradually improve. Note that I said gradually. God cannot give many of us greater responsibility until we learn to do the "lesser" ones. Yes, it is humbling to have to sleep in a car, wash in gas station bathrooms, be looked upon as a "pest." However, what a golden opportunity. Get yourself some Christian tracts and leave them in every bathroom you have to visit for personal use. How exciting! Just think of the people that are traveling, people you could never meet in the natural, that you can reach!

I Co. 4:2
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

I Pet. 4:19
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Do not become a victim of your circumstances. Stand up in Christ Jesus and make the circumstances an adventure in witnessing. When you get to heaven, think how wonderful it will be to meet all those that read your tracts and found salvation. We started our "baby walk" in Christ by giving tracts. I remember them well. They were royal blue in color and said "Friend" on the outside. Inside was the simple plan of salvation/hope. We gave out one in a Woolworth's in a northern state. The man came over to our table, a large man, and we thought he might possible want to ridicule us for going over and placing a track on his table. He said, " I want to thank you for this word of comfort, I am a Catholic and I have just buried my mother. I had a brother killed in Vietnam. Now, I'm on my way to Nevada to bury my youngest brother that was killed in foul play. I was feeling I could not go on…now I can." He left and we have never seen him again. Do you hear me?!

Too many people think they have to stand behind a pulpit, prepare politically correct sermons, and do fund raising for the organization. Most people that have needs, however, are out there on the streets, traveling from one situation to another. It most certainly seems that this is your call. Buy some inexpensive tracts. In fact, many churches have tracts in the vestibule that can be taken and carried to others. The little, tiny Bible are free for the asking. An old song I heard as a child comes to mind.